For the last OUT.FEST we had the pleasure and honour of having New Yorkers Dälek, one of the most adventurous hip hop groups around, on their return to Portugal after more than a decade. Before their concert, we spoke with Will Brooks (MC Dälek himself) about their studio approach, past and future collaborations, and the artists that inspire him.
Interview by Tiago Franco. Photos by Pedro Roque.
How was the tour with Anguish?
It’s been amazing man, it’s kind of phenomenal how it came together so quickly and how we were actually able to play shows. It’s hard to get everyone together, everyone has different projects going on so it’s not easy to set up tours, so whenever it becomes available, we go for it. Literally the first show we played was at Moers Festival, and the day before we were playing as Dälek in Austin, Texas, so we had to leave Austin to fly to New York, then catch a plane to fly to Germany just to play that show… but it was the kind of thing that we had to do, otherwise we wouldn’t have played for another month. It was great man though, from the first show it was just…we knew we had something special when we recorded, but from the first live performance you could tell it was definitely something special on stage.
I think we’ve done maybe like eight or nine performances so far, and it keeps getting better and better. It’s kind of crazy man, because the first show: no rehearsals, just kind of made it happen, then there were two shows where Mats [Gustafsson] couldn’t make it, so we got a replacement that he recommended, this guy Goran [Kajfes] who played trumpet, and he came in knowing the songs, but with us trusting we would make it somehow, and it was phenomenal man, I feel like it really came together.
It’s been a pleasure, playing with musicians of that calibre makes it easy - I have complete confidence in everyone on that stage and it’s nice because we can kind of take it in out there directions and I know we’re going to land on our feet. So it’s cool, it’s very different from the Dälek stuff, because the songs evolve and change. There are core moments to the songs but it’s very improv, very kind of open ended, and it’s just a pleasure to be a part of that.
I know you’ve done the record with Hans Joachim Irmler…How did you meet him and the Fire! Orchestra guys?
So Mats is another guy that…we’ve known each other for more than a decade now, I think the first time we played together was at Konfrontationen Festival in Nickelsdorf, a free jazz festival in Austria, and just kind of hit it off with him right away, and he was one of those dudes that we always voiced that we wanted to work together, but schedules were always so crazy that it never really worked. Then that summer when we recorded Anguish it kind of all came together. We invited him to play saxophone with Dälek for a couple of festivals - basically it was like two separate weeks of shows and we had a week off in between - and we thought instead of going home, it’d be better to get a recording session going and see what we could come up with. So we presented the idea to him, and he loved it, and right away I spoke with Joachim, because we wanted to work on something together again and he has a good recording studio in Germany. So we contacted Joachim and he was completely into it, and then Mats recommended that we bring his drummer from Fire! Orchestra, and it was just perfect man, it worked really really well, it was me and Mike from Dälek, and the two guys from Fire! Orchestra and Joachim. It sounds out there but it worked so well.
You’ve collaborated with so many different artists over the years, what appeals to you in collaborating with artists people would normally not associate with hip-hop?
I never really cared about genre. I care about music man, if it’s good it’s good, and having musicians of that calibre even consider working with me is an honour, so when I have the opportunity to work with someone I respect I take it man, because life is limited, I’m trying to make it count, trying to make as many projects and as much good music as I can, there’s a long list of people that I still want to work with, so yeah…
Do you have any future collaborations in mind?
Yeah, there’s some stuff in the works that I’m not really talking about yet, and there’s a dream list of course, I’d love to work with Kevin Shields, from My Bloody Valentine, I’d like to work with Stephen O’Malley, Björk has always been on my list…I mean as far as Hip Hop goes, guys like Ka… there’s so many people, so many good artists out there… again, it’s not about genres, it’s about: “What kind of art did you create with another musician?”. You come from completely different worlds and finding that common ground is what makes it much more special.
I wanted to talk to you a little bit about My Bloody Valentine, because you often mention them. Can you tell us about the first time you heard them, and what it sparked in you?
Yeah, I actually got into them very late, at around the time we started Dälek. It was myself and Oktopus who started the group, I think it was in around 95/96 that we started working together, and at that time he was coming from more of a punk background, I was coming obviously from more of a hip hop background, but at the same time he had a varied taste, he liked a lot of shoegaze, a lot of alternative stuff, we both liked a lot of jazz, I liked salsa, he liked metal…so we both had this weird common ground, but there were also all these other areas which none of us were really well versed in.
He loved old school hip hop but he had stopped listening to hip hop, he was into Public Enemy and stuff like that… at the time he was just engineering my project, we hadn’t started a group yet, but after the sessions we would just hang out and play music for each other. I’d be like “You’ve got to hear this”, and show him the hip hop that was coming out at that time, you know 94/95/96, so I was playing him the Wu Tang solo records, Nas, you know, all that Boom Bap stuff that was out at that time, which I guess is now the golden era stuff, but at the time it was just what was happening, and he was introducing me to stuff like All Natural Lemon And Lime Flavours, who were peers of ours. We actually went to school with one of those dudes, Josh Booth, who ended up working with us as well, and they had introduced Oktopus to My Bloody Valentine. To this day I still remember the exact moment, we were drunk as shit, he put on Loveless, and it was just like a spark went off, I was like, “That, what is that? I want to do that for Hip Hop, how do we do that?” It just made complete sense to me, everything about it sounded right, the way the vocals were an instrument, the way the guitars were this wall of sound, how the noise was melodic, just everything about it was beautiful to me man, that album just changed everything, it was just one of those moments where I was just like…Honestly, to me Dälek is just My Bloody Valentine, Public Enemy, KRS-One, maybe a little Faust and a little Velvet Underground, you know what I mean, maybe a little Rakim, that’s really the formula that’s what inspired us…We played a festival that Thurston Moore curated, and Deb Googe, the bass player from MBV was in his band, so we were lucky enough to hang out with her and I was like a little kid, I was like “Oh shit…” and she was so sweet and so cool with us, she was telling us that she was digging what we were doing, and I told her to me that was everything, and when MBV played in New York she actually invited me to the show and I got to meet them, and again I was like - I’m usually not that dude - but I was straight up a fan, 100%, had them sign my records and all that shit.
That’s the beautiful thing about music, there’s certain bands that just resonate with you, they inspire you, and they’re definitely one of those bands that just basically redefined what I thought I wanted to do. KRS-One was probably who started that, when I heard him I knew that that was what I wanted to do in my life, Public Enemy was another one of those groups, and I feel that My Bloody Valentine, that was the other one that when I heard them I was like “Yeahh, that!” You know what I mean? Just amazing.
On the last record the way the samples are all layered and the way the music ends up very much reminds me of how Kevin Shields labours over in the studio to make everything mesh in a way that’s totally ethereal but also really brutal and in your face, and I think you guys do a beautiful job of incorporating that without ripping off…
Thank you. You know, it’s funny, because we’ve always been accused of sampling My Bloody Valentine, I’ve never once in my life sampled My Bloody Valentine, I never will, there’s certain records that where it doesn’t feel right to take anything from them other than inspiration…there’s no need, we figured out a way to get to where we wanted to go without sampling anything, kind of just creating our own stuff.
You said that contemporary music is also very exciting to you. So how do you view contemporary hip hop?
Well, I think there’s a lot of contemporary hip hop that’s unbelievable right now, though my definition of contemporary hip hop would be different to yours. The stuff that’s on the radio to me isn’t hip hop, you know what I mean, it’s pop music. I actually prefer it when they call it stuff like trap, have it be its own thing, because it has very little to do with hip hop culture. It’s its own thing, there’s nothing wrong with it. I also feel like that there is a certain part of it that’s generational, I feel like a lot of that newer stuff is for younger kids, you know. It’s not for me - I’m 44 years old, it’s not written for me and it shouldn’t be. And there’s nothing wrong with that, I’m not disparaging that music, I think that music exists for different reasons and that’s fine, but to call something hip hop…
I feel that there is new hip hop that’s fire, it’s dope, if you listen to Roc Marciano, if you listen to, I guess I mentioned Ka, Crimeapple, Brown13, there’s a lot of stuff that’s coming out that’s new and contemporary, and there’s still that grimy hip hop that I love, there’s a lot of ill lyricists right now, there’s a lot of good things happening so…I don’t know, I’m 44 but I hate when people my age start talking about “Oh there’s no good music now”. Nah, you just stopped listening, because there’s always good music, it’s just a matter of looking for it. There’s a lot of trash music too of course, but it’s always been like that…
So outside of hip hop what other contemporary music have you been excited about?
I’m trying to think, because sometimes I get on that kick where I’ll just be listening to a lot of old shit…there’s months where all I’ll listen to is The Cure or Joy Division…(laughs) I’ve been kind of one of those kicks lately…
I really loved the last two albums by Solange, I thought that those were really amazing records, talking about contemporary…I guess you’d call it R&B, but I just like what she’s been doing in general, amazing songwriting and great vocals, and experimental in a way - for pop music, it’s pretty out there, which is cool…you mind if I look at my Spotify for a second to see what I’ve been listening to? Because otherwise I blank out…
I really loved the last two albums by Solange, I thought that those were really amazing records, talking about contemporary…I guess you’d call it R&B, but I just like what she’s been doing in general, amazing songwriting and great vocals, and experimental in a way - for pop music, it’s pretty out there, which is cool…you mind if I look at my Spotify for a second to see what I’ve been listening to? Because otherwise I blank out…
This band Belong, I don’t know if you know them, they’re kind of shoegazy…Black Marble is, I’m obsessed with that dude, their stuff is amazing. Speaking of hip hop, my boy House Shoes, his label Street Corner Music, he’s been releasing, at least three or four albums a year, and everything he’s been putting out is ridiculous. It’s mostly instrumental hip hop, but some unbelievable stuff there.
Hmm…Iron & Wine…Midnight Owl…
You don’t seem to be restricted at all by hardness or softness…
Nah man, I just like music, if it’s good it’s good…Oh Space Echo, that’s another one. Suuns…they’re pretty ridiculous too…Yeah man, there’s a ton of stuff.
Going back to I guess the classics you’ve been talking about, what was the first hip hop record or song that really made you think outside the box, and see the possibilities in hip hop and music in general?
Probably Ultramagnetic MCs, because they were probably the first ones doing kind of out there production…I feel like Premier… it’s really deceptive, because you listen to his production and he makes you think that it’s so simple, but then you realize that he picked the most simple pieces that fit together so perfectly, and that’s very difficult to do. I feel like if you try to make a Premier beat you’re going to fail, he just has an ear for what works together, even though it’s very minimal, but it’s deceptively complex in structure, and I think that there’s something really beautiful about that. It’s almost like he’s the polar opposite of what we do, our stuff is so layered and dense, but I have so much respect for what he does with the minimalistic aspects of hip hop… it’s weird, he’s been an influence even though he’s the polar opposite of what we do. I still study what he does, because I feel like it’s beautiful, it’s really dope. And obviously the Bomb Squad, their production…The Bomb Squad is where the idea of layering in hip hop that we do comes from, if you listen to “It Takes A Nation of Millions” and “Fear of a Black Planet”…
And obviously the Bomb Squad, their production…The Bomb Squad is where the idea of layering in hip hop that we do comes from, if you listen to “It Takes A Nation of Millions” and “Fear of a Black Planet”…
Yeah, Public Enemy were so far ahead of its time….
Yeah, the Shocklees, the Bomb Squad was on another planet, straight up, it was amazing.
Talking about your last album [Endangered Philosophies], what philosophies do you see as endangered right now?
You know, honestly… I just feel like any kind of thinking is endangered right now (laughs). I wasn’t even trying to go that deep in regards to specifics…I suppose I feel like intellect is endangered right now, the whole climate just feels like, if you have any kind of intelligence you’re an endangered species…at least that’s how I feel right now.
And what do you think your next record is going to tackle, is that a continued preoccupation with you?
I dunno man, that’s a good question. We’ve got this show, then we have a festival in Minneapolis, maybe a couple of shows in Mexico, but then after that, we’re back in the studio to really put together the next album. We have pieces that we’ve been working on, but when we work on albums I like to work in the album as a whole, try to see how all the pieces fit and what direction we’re going in and what we’re doing next. To be honest with you I don’t know yet, I’m not sure…because I’ve always tried to make our records topical, without being specific to the time, you know what I mean, I want it to be about now, but I don’t want it to be like “Oh that record is from such and such time period”. It’s that fine line where I want to touch on things that are happening, not just in the world but in my life, but also put it in a context where it’s more universal, in a way that could be timeless, so I’m not sure, I’m not really sure where I’m going, I have some thoughts, but I still have to work them out. It won’t be happy, I know that much…(laughs).
It seems like people who are the most unhappy are the people who are the most sane at the moment in a way. It’s a weird generalization to make of course, but it seems like so much of what people consider logic has become totally inverted…
It’s interesting times we’re living in, that’s the best way to put it man…I don’t know, I don’t think I have any answers, I don’t know where this is going. But I’ll say this much, I’m a very curious person, so I’d like to stick around as much as I can to see where this goes, for better or worse. I’m not 100% sold on either direction, I don’t necessarily think it’s all going to be shit, but…I don’t know, we’ll see what happens. (laughs)
Just one last question since you mentioned The Cure, what’s your favourite album? What do you think of-
Fascination Street…Boys Don’t Cry… One of those two. I mean I’m a sucker for all their hits, obviously, but Fascination Street is a dope record.
They’re another one of those bands that I feel like they’re never really stuck in genres in any way…
Nah, they just rolled, it’s kind of phenomenal… what’s that song, the one with the days, you know what I’m talking about…
“In Between Days.”
Yeah, I mean, that song sounds like it’s so happy, I’m like “Yo, that’s nothing like The Cure”, and yet it’s completely The Cure, you know what I mean? It’s kind of amazing that that song goes against everything that they really write and yet it’s still them, and even though the song is happy it comes off as a little melancholy… which is amazing, you know what I mean?
Yeah, the lyrics on that are something like “Yesterday I felt so old, I felt like I wanted to die”…
(laughs)
What people say about The Fall is a bit reductionist in a way, but it’s so true and it applies to so many bands: “Always different, always the same”. I personally think it’s like the peak of artistic creativity when you make something that people heard be like “Oh yeah, that’s them”, and it’s really inspiring when The Cure or you guys manage to do that.
Oh shit man, when you put me in the same conversation as The Cure and The Fall…thank you! I don’t even know if we’re worth mentioning in the same breath, but I appreciate it, because those are some heavy hitters right there, word up. But yeah man, all we’ve tried to do is keep making the best possible music I could make. It’s funny, yesterday - this is the first time we’ve been in Portugal for like 10 years, 12 years, something like that - and a kid came by yesterday and said “Yo I’ve been waiting for 12 years to see you play, I didn’t think you’d still have that fire and that energy”, and I was like “yeah, me neither” (laughs). But I do, I still got that hunger and every show. I love it man, I love performing, I love making this music, the day I don’t love it is the day I won’t do it, and the day I feel like the record is not good enough, if I’m not feeling it, I’m not putting it out, that’s my word, I’m not doing it just to do it.
I recognize how long we’ve been doing this for, especially what me and Oktopus built together… before our hiatus, when I came back, I told him “Yo, I’m not putting out garbage, I’m not doing anything to tarnish what we did in the past”, I feel like it’s my mission to at least try to keep getting better and better, and if I can continue doing that, I’ll keep doing that. Like I said, as long as I’m feeling good on stage and happy with that I’m doing…I mean, this is what I know, I don’t know anything else, I’m a lifer, I’ll be here for as long as people will have me, you know what I mean? Word up.
Thank you so much.
